Jay: Last week we discussed the concept of grace as illustrated in the Kingdom of Heaven parables. These parables not only describe grace but also include elements of judgment. We struggled to reconcile grace and judgment, despite Jesus’ teachings seemingly bringing them together. The five parables in focus were the Ten Virgins, where the bridegroom denies entry to five; the Wedding Feast, featuring a man cast out for improper attire; the fishing net; the Talents, with one servant being punished for misuse; and the Wheat and the Tares, where weeds sown by an evil one are eventually separated and destroyed. Our goal has been to understand the relationship, if any, between God’s grace and judgment.
In the Wheat and the Tares, the workers ask if they should remove the weeds, but the master instructs them to wait until the end for separation. This parable, which the disciples asked Jesus to explain, is detailed in Matthew 13:36-40. Jesus describes the Son of Man as the sower, the world as the field, and the good seeds as the kingdom’s people. The weeds represent the evil one’s people, and the devil is the enemy who sows them. The end of the age is the harvest, with angels as harvesters. The parable concludes with the separation of good and evil, and the punishment of the latter.
Additionally, I want to discuss the connection between grace and judgment in the context of two more Kingdom of Heaven parables from Matthew 25—the Ten Virgins and the Talents—followed by the judgment scene of separating sheep and goats. This scene describes the Son of Man’s return and the ensuing separation of people based on their actions towards the needy.
Finally, Dr. Weaver suggested a potential link between grace and judgment through the lens of discernment or evaluation. The question is whose evaluation we use—our own or God’s. This concept of discernment, whether worldly or divine, may connect grace and judgment. I’m interested in your thoughts on how grace and judgment might be related and if discernment or evaluation plays a role in this relationship.
David: It seems clear to me that grace always follows judgment. We’re all inherently flawed, as the Bible repeatedly tells us—we’re the foolish virgins, we’re the miscreants in the parables, destined for punishment unless grace intervenes. This is reminiscent of the hymn “Amazing Grace”—that “saved a wretch like me”. However, I haven’t found a direct statement in the New Testament where Jesus explicitly says that grace follows judgment. Maybe it’s something I’ve overlooked.
C-J: I’d like to highlight Jesus’ final act of grace—his death. Before dying, he promised paradise to the criminals beside him. This act was a significant demonstration of grace, visible to all present. Grace was a constant in Jesus’ life, as seen in the feeding of the 5,000, his interaction with the woman at the well, and more. In these instances, societal judgment came first, followed by Jesus’ grace. Even in the Garden of Eden, God approached Adam and Eve after their transgression, which was an act of grace.
David: Jesus’ life was indeed a demonstration of grace. We seek written affirmation, but maybe it’s more about living a life of grace, as Jesus did, rather than talking about it. The Bible does show Jesus’ grace, but it’s not directly written that grace follows judgment. A document affirming that grace excuses our wrongdoings might send the wrong message. Perhaps it’s a truth that must be demonstrated through our actions, as Jesus showed in his life.
Donald: There’s another aspect to consider: the concept of earning salvation. It’s not just about being inherently flawed; it’s also about whether we can earn our way to righteousness. What motivates us to strive for the “good side”? Is it a selfish desire for salvation, or is it understanding that grace will prevail? The key seems to be our relationship with God, rather than the notion that we can save ourselves. This raises a challenge: how do we find ourselves on the right side? What responsibility do we bear with the “gold” we’re given?
Jay: The crux of discernment in our spiritual journey is: How do we know if we’re on the right path? This dilemma of discernment is crucial. Is it even possible to discern correctly, and if it is, does striving for it help or hinder us?
C-J: I’ll draw a parallel with addiction recovery. The saying, “relapse is part of recovery,” always bothers me because it presupposes failure. In faith communities, like the church, there’s a support system that encourages staying on the right path. Recovery, to me, is God’s domain. I’ve experienced moments of intense anger, and I realized it wasn”t about the immediate cause of anger but rather a lack of trust in God. When I trust God, I don”t succumb to anger. Last night, I experienced a relapse in my faith, driven by vulnerability and fear. This wasn’t a lapse in my actions but in my trust in God.
Carolyn: In my view, when we come to Christ and seek grace, we are enveloped by it. There’s a scriptural assurance that we won’t be forsaken – “I will not let you go.” This, to me, is the perpetual coverage of grace. Despite judgment and our deeds being scrutinized, the undercurrent of grace, established at the beginning of our relationship with Christ, remains with us. I believe we have an assurance from God that is unshakeable.
Michael: Referring to the parable Jay mentioned, the criteria for salvation or judgment seem to revolve around acts of social justice. It appears more as a declaration of social justice than a spiritual guideline. This raises the question – are these acts the basis for judgment, and do they precede or follow grace?
C-J: The Lord’s teaching, “Whatever you do, do it as unto me,” highlights the reciprocity of grace. Given much grace, we’re required to extend it to others. The concept of social justice reflects the chaos in a society lacking moral guardrails. Religions and the awe of natural phenomena, like earthquakes and famines, have historically shaped societal conduct. This relationship with the divine should be nurtured from youth, teaching children to see God’s hand in the world. As we grow, life’s chaos and injustices bombard us, but grace lies in trusting God in all circumstances, even in the mundane or challenging. This relationship with God is intensely personal, unique like a romantic relationship.
Jay: Michael’s point about the timeline of grace and judgment is intriguing. David introduced the idea of grace following judgment, while Carolyn mentioned grace being present from the beginning. This creates a sort of timeline dissonance. In the parable of the sheep and goats, judgment appears to start the process, with separation based on the criteria of good deeds. This separation is followed by surprise from both groups, neither knowing where they stand. This aspect of uncertainty is fascinating. As Donald suggested, we’re continually trying to discern our position. Could this uncertainty be a key aspect of the grace-judgment dynamic?
Carolyn: I wonder, when we are in a state of grace with God, is it possible to lose that grace?
C-J: No, I believe God’s promise is unbreakable – “I will never leave nor forsake you.” It’s about realizing who we are in God’s eyes. God’s grace differs from human forgiveness; it’s omniscient and predestined. People raised in the church might feel a sense of entitlement to grace due to their good deeds. In contrast, those who”ve struggled significantly, and know they”re undeserving, often exhibit a profound fervor for grace once they find God.
Don: Jesus indeed indicated that those deemed sinners, like adulterers, might enter heaven before the self-righteous Pharisees. This subverts our typical expectations.
Reflecting on John’s Gospel, the passage about preferring darkness to light is pertinent. It suggests a choice regarding grace. Embracing grace seems necessary for its effectiveness. It’s not merely about receiving it but actively engaging with it.
C-J: I liken sin to falling into a mud puddle. Repeated sinning can engulf a person like quicksand. But God’s grace can cleanse and renew. I recall my own baptism; emerging from the water felt transformative. This grace enables me to empathize with and support those struggling with sin, without judgment. It’s not something I earned or extended; it’s a gift from God. The process of restoration and accessing God’s grace is a lifelong journey. In God’s economy, nothing is wasted, and those who embrace His grace often go on to do extraordinary things in accordance with His will.
Grace is purely a divine gift. Understanding this helps us to approach others with compassion rather than judgment. My personal journey of faith, marked by moments of deviation and return, illustrates God’s unwavering grace. Each time I strayed, God’s grace guided me back. It reminds me of the rebuilding process described in the Book of Nehemiah, where not only physical walls and gates were restored, but also spiritual foundations. This journey of restoration and reconnection with God is long and ongoing. Nothing in our lives is ever wasted in God’s perspective. Those who have experienced and embraced this grace are often the ones who perceive needs and opportunities that others overlook. They are driven to act, inspired by the Great Commission and beyond, to places and tasks where their unique experiences and God’s grace can make a profound difference.
Donald: Our discussion seems to be centered on how we transition from one spiritual state to another, and it’s a complex issue. Reflecting on a recent conversation with a woman whose husband was diagnosed with a brain tumor, I was struck by her perspective of seeing God’s hand in this challenging situation. This reminds me of my own experiences with illness and how I’ve grappled with understanding why certain things happen. For instance, I was in Geneva instead of Jordan due to a war, which likely saved my life. This lady, like many of us, is trying to make sense of her trials, similar to Job’s struggles.
I’ve always believed that Earth is unique in its experience with sin. There might be other worlds created by God, where beings haven’t chosen the path of sin. They could be observing us, learning from our journey. This concept, possibly influenced by Ellen G. White’s teachings, suggests that our world is a singular example of a fallen state.
In this world of sin, it’s not so much about what happens to us—because we will face challenges—but rather how we respond to these challenges. It’s fascinating to consider that our world might be a kind of demonstration for other galaxies. How did God orchestrate this? He had a plan, culminating in His sacrifice, offering us salvation. Yet, here we are, trying to decipher the intricacies of this plan.
Michael: The criteria in the parable seem to be based on doing good or failing to do so. But another interesting aspect is whether people believed they would be saved. This belief or lack thereof is a different kind of criterion. It’s hard to gauge oneself purely on the basis of actions, as the boundaries can be ambiguous. But the mindset of expecting or doubting salvation is distinctly different.
Donald: I’m troubled by the notion that we can earn our way to salvation. Grace must be present both before and after our earthly experiences. We exist in a reality that was never intended to be – it’s more than just an experiment. We live in a fallen world, yet within this context, grace plays a pivotal role, enveloping our entire existence.
David: We seem to be talking about two types of grace. The parables may be referencing a sort of ultimate grace—a final, saving grace at the point of our greatest need, like being on the brink of exclusion from the Kingdom of Heaven. This contrasts with the grace we’re born with, the grace that we’re meant to cultivate and share with others, much like the Good Samaritan did. The grace we share is different from that saving grace at our lowest point, almost as if it should have a different name.
Carolyn: I agree that choice plays a crucial role. Like the criminal on the cross who chose to ask Jesus for grace, we too must choose to have a relationship with Christ. This grace is available from birth and throughout our lives, but it requires our choice to embrace it. This grace sustains us through tough times and sin, as Christ’s sacrifice on the cross has made provision for our faults.
C-J: About the two individuals crucified alongside Christ, their inquiry was about Christ’s identity. They wanted to know if he was the Messiah and what that meant. This reflects our own journey of seeking God, asking for revelation and guidance. This process of seeking is not about perfection but about engagement and growth in understanding God’s will. We are constantly learning, humbled by our missteps and guided by God’s loving patience.
Grace, being unmerited, is always a process of growth and understanding. We seek to justify ourselves, avoid pain, and understand our Creator, but the essence of our relationship with God is about drawing closer to Him, trusting in His presence and provision, even when it’s not what we expect. God is always there, nurturing our growth, and inviting us into a deeper understanding and relationship.
Donald: The dichotomy between grace and judgment is a crucial aspect of our spiritual journey, and our human inclination to discern our spiritual standing. As has been pointed out, the act of discernment, of determining good and evil, right and wrong, is fraught with complications for us as humans post-fall. Our attempts to categorize and evaluate often lead us astray from the essence of our faith.
The parables and Jesus’ teachings seem to underscore this point. In the garden, Adam and Eve’s first act post-sin was to judge themselves—something God questioned. In the parable of the wheat and the tares, it’s the angels, not humans, who are assigned the task of separation, suggesting that discernment of this kind is beyond our scope.
Furthermore, when Jesus heals and forgives, he challenges the Pharisees’ notion of who is worthy of forgiveness, suggesting that their judgment might be the very sin that alienates them from God. This points to a profound truth: our preoccupation with where we stand—in the light or darkness, in right or wrong—can lead us away from the central focus of our faith.
The judgment scene is particularly telling. Those who are judged are surprised by their position, indicating that their own discernment was not the determining factor. The focus is not on a list of wrongs but on the presence or absence of goodness – a challenging notion for those of us who are so inclined to judge and categorize.
Jay’s conclusion brings us to a liberating perspective: letting God handle the judgment and focusing ourselves on embracing grace. This approach, while seemingly simple, is often undermined by our human tendencies to slip back into self-evaluation and judgment. Our challenge is to trust in God’s grace and leave the judgment to Him, freeing ourselves from the burdensome task of trying to discern our own righteousness. This trust in divine grace, rather than in our flawed discernment, seems to be the path that Jesus encourages us to follow.
Don: The conversation about judgment often focuses on the negative, but perhaps we should consider the positive aspect of vindication that comes with it. This could be a crucial aspect of grace.
Carolyn: Yes, that’s exactly what grace is about—vindication from judgment.
Don: Exactly, grace vindicates us from the negative connotations of judgment. So, in that sense, judgment can be good.
Michael: However, I wonder if grace is adequately represented in mainstream theology. If the crucifixion, seen as the ultimate act of grace, was truly understood and believed as such, wouldn’t our church sermons and teachings be different? There seems to be a gap between the theological understanding of grace and its practical application in religious teachings.
David: Discussing Jesus’s death as an act of grace is complex. I’m particularly troubled by Jesus’s words on the cross, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” It seems to question the very existence of grace at that moment. This topic might warrant a separate discussion to fully explore its implications and our understanding of grace in relation to the crucifixion.
Donald: From a human perspective, consider the judicial system where judgment can lead to imprisonment. However, there’s also the concept of a presidential pardon, where, regardless of the judgment, a person is set free. This could be seen as a parallel to divine grace—after judgment, grace prevails, offering freedom irrespective of past actions.
C-J: It’s important to note that God’s agenda is not like human political agendas. While humans may pardon for various reasons, God’s objective is always the reunification of the Body of Christ, not based on what we’ve done to earn it, but on His own authority and love.
Donald: I understand the differences between politics and religion, but my point is to understand the process. After everything is said and done, it’s God’s grace that ultimately prevails, offering salvation and freedom.
C-J: But would we want a parent who holds the power of pardon over us as a means of control? True love, akin to God’s love, isn”t about deciding who merits a pardon. It’s about nurturing and maturing people. God’s grace isn”t conditional like human pardons; it’s a fundamental expression of His unconditional love and desire for our spiritual growth and reconciliation.
Donald: The analogy about a parent pardoning a child for wrongdoing demonstrates a crucial aspect of grace. When a parent forgives a child, it’s a demonstration of love and understanding. This act of forgiveness is akin to grace.
C-J: Exactly, that’s the essence of grace. It’s not our place to judge or determine right and wrong in the ultimate sense. That’s God’s domain. Human grace, like forgiving a friend or understanding their needs, comes from a place of love and wisdom. It’s about seeing the heart and intentions of others and choosing to respond with compassion.
Donald: I think Michael’s question earlier about grace in the church is significant. It seems like many churches focus more on aspects other than grace. Perhaps there’s a need to shift this focus.
Jay: Yes, Michael’s point ties into the idea of discernment versus grace. It’s challenging to find a religious organization that emphasizes grace over right and wrong. The focus often leans towards discernment, which is about judging good and evil, rather than being centered on grace. This distinction is important. A grace-focused approach would presumably shift away from judgment and towards compassion and understanding. This topic, along with the concept of judgment being perceived negatively, could be fertile ground for further discussion as we continue exploring these themes.
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