Innocence II

Jay led the meeting. Don joined via Skype from Saudi Arabia.

Jay: We will continue our study of innocence, starting with a reminder of some relevant scriptural passages:

Matthew 18:1-6
At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Matthew 11:25-26
At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.

Matthew 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, “Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.

Matthew 21:12-16
And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer’; but you are making it a robbers’ den.”

And the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them. But when the chief priests and the scribes saw the wonderful things that He had done, and the children who were shouting in the temple, “Hosanna to the Son of David,” they became indignant 16 and said to Him, “Do You hear what these children are saying?” And Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read, ‘Out of the mouth of infants and nursing babies You have prepared praise for Yourself’?”

Mark 9:33-37
They came to Capernaum; and when He was in the house, He began to question them, “What were you discussing on the way?” But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. Sitting down, He called the twelve and said to them, “If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.” Taking a child, He set him before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, “Whoever receives one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me.”

Mark 10:13-15 (and Luke 18 says much the same)
And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, “Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

1 Corinthians 14:20
Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

The Beatitudes reflect these sentiments somewhat:

Matthew 5:1
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
5 “Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
10 “Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”

Rimon: That the pure in heart shall see God means that one does not have to be a child, one must simply be pure. But how can we be pure without going back to childhood? How can we think like adults, yet treat evil in the same way that children treat evil?

Harry: Children are dependent on adults, thought they don’t necessarily know that they are. The world is the way it is. You get hungry, and food appears before you. They don’t spend time worrying about much at all. They just go about enjoying life. Some of the nicest people I know are just like children. They simply enjoy life. That is their way, and perhaps it is the way to the kingdom. So perhaps we should not be concerned with finding the way but instead should just follow the way we are already on!

David: This boils down to having faith—that there will be someone there to pick you up when you fall down. Coming back to a childlike state means adopting that level of faith—of not being bothered about what might happen, about where the next meal is coming from.

Don: There is a stage right after birth through about two years old where a child does not seem to be able to define itself separately from its parents. There is a lack of ego at this stage. Eventually ego begins to manifest itself as the child begins to exhibit signs of reaching for independence, but until that happens, we seem to be at the stage of childlikeness that is being talked about in the scriptures. Is there something in developmental psychology that could shed some light on this?

David: Somebody came up with a developmental hierarchy of the definitions of Good and Right, as follows (if memory serves me correctly):

1. From birth to 6 months: Good is what I like; Right is what I think
2. From 6 months to (2 years?) Good is what mommy and daddy like; Right is what mommy and daddy think  
3. From (2 years?) to early teens: Good is what my peer group likes; Right is what mommy and daddy think
4. From early teens to young adulthood: Good is what my peer group likes; Right is what my peer group thinks
5. (There’s a fifth and final stage, but I can’t remember it and am reluctant to make a guess at it!)

Stage 1 is not as selfish as it sounds, because the child has no reference at that point. It has not acquired knowledge. It has not eaten of the forbidden fruit. So good must be what that child likes, and right must be what that child thinks, because there is nothing else available to the child to help it make a decision—only its virginal neural circuits. And that, it seems, is the stage we are supposed to go back to. It’s odd because if—as must logically be the case—the infant legitimately and unerringly decides what is good and right then what is God’s role? Would it not mean that God has no say in what is good and right?

Jay: Perhaps we never have more faith than in infancy, when we don’t even know that we are supposed to have it! The infant does not question its faith in its parents; it is pure acceptance, pure faith.

Don: Even if we could pinpoint the stage of childhood the scriptures are referring to, we are still left with the question of how to get back to that stage, as we are told we must.

David: Last week, Alice told a touching story which, to me, suggested that the ultimate innocence is to be found only in death. So all we have to do is die, or never leave the womb, and we will be where we need to be. The only way back is through death.

Jay: I’d like to get there before that! 😉

Harry [Harry, I’ve done a bit of extrapolation and interpretation here — forgive me if I am in error): Shelby Spong’s book suggests that we should scrap Christianity and start a new religion. Jesus was always surrounded by religious people, but he often walked away from them to mix with unbelievers and sinners. It was as though he too was saying to the religionists that they needed to re-think their religion. It was a profound yet simple message, just like his radical point about becoming like a child. Perhaps all Jesus meant by it is “Start over.”

What if we were to encourage newcomers to our church to exhibit the attitude of a child. What would not be important to them would include: How to approach the altar, what songs to sing, whether there should be a drum or no drum. None of these things that we think are central to our religion and our church are at all important, and that is the message Jesus is giving. Certainly, this would induce chaos. But maybe that’s the point!

Robin: Adults teach children about evil. In the early grades, you don’t see much sign of evil in children in school—first grade has no segregation, etc. But evil is well developed by middle school. We teach our children about “stranger danger” and various other evils and dangers, and the children place their faith in these teachings. As we get older, we acquire the “wisdom” and maturity to re-think some of these lessons, and we lose our blind faith that our physical and intellectual needs will be met by adults. And yet, this is precisely God’s message: Over and over again, he tells us that we should have faith that he will provide for all our needs.

Jay: There is a negative connotation to “blind faith.” Is it really what Jesus is asking us to have? And if it is, is the aging/maturation process a detriment to our resumption of blind faith?

Harry: Are the Beatitudes an a la carte menu? Can we choose between being rich in spirit and seeing God? The more we read the bible, the more we seem to see a pathway being delineated for us.

Don: Children lack knowledge of what is dangerous, and therefore have no sense of danger. Their world is not constrained by it until we teach them about it—which we spend much of our time doing.

Jay: If you substitute “danger” for “evil,” then 1 Corinthians 14:20 makes sense. The first part of operationalizing a return to innocence is the recognition that we have been programmed, and that we need therefore to de-program ourselves.

Harry: The biggest problem God ever had was when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit. His promise that he was the way forward covered for them; they didn’t (and we don’t) need knowledge. Every one of us will at some point in our lives need a Beatitudinal blessing; all God is saying is when that happens, don’t worry about it—you will be blessed!

Jay: In a sense, the Beatitudes are a way to deconstruct our programming. We have not been programmed by God to be poor in spirit, etc. but if we are, becoming like a child is the way back.

Robin: The Beatitudes reflect the ideal character that Jesus wants us to develop. He wants us to understand that blind faith will get us there.

Harry: Blind faith says to me: “There is no road to follow, because I am there; There is no pathway to me, because I am everywhere; Just know that I am with you, everywhere and all the time.” This gives one the freedom to live one’s life to the fullest, without need for a specified path.

Alice: Jesus said “I am the way.”

Don: Teaching danger to children is designed to prepare them for independence. Jesus seems to be saying that whatever the consequences, we should accept dangers. The socialization of children to become independent is just not necessary. Simply relying on God, having blind faith, is what we need. But we act against that.

David: I think of a Syrian refugee family going through hell to escape the fighting. The infant they are carrying has no idea that it is essentially walking through the valley of the shadow of death, but I am sure that it fears no evil and is comforted by the rod and staff of its parent. The message of scripture is that the mother should be just as unconcerned about the danger all around as the infant in her arms is. How she can achieve that level of unconcern, I have no idea.

Robin: Perhaps we Christians have twisted Jesus’s “I am the way” to mean that everyone must become Christian like us and understand Christ as we do. But perhaps it means that when Christ comes to reign, everyone who is in the kingdom is there because they showed evidence of possessing the holy spirit, that’s all.

Harry: Who am I to judge whether Jesus is the way or not? The Hindu does not know that Jesus is the way, and it is extremely arrogant of Christians to think that the Hindu should know it!

Rimon: It is not so much that Jesus is the way than that God is the way, and that is something all religions can believe in.

David: Daoism’s central concept—the Dao—literally means the Way, the road, the path; and the philosophy of Daoism simply says: “Follow it!” There is no God in Daoism; only “The Way.” By not using the word “God” Daoism seems to me more human, more earthy, and more practical. [Postcript: And it doesn’t carry any threat, implied or explicit, about divine retribution, etc. Or any promise of divine reward, for that matter.]

Rimon: There’s a New Age philosophy that at every moment in life we are provided with everything we need.

Don: Jesus is asking us to accept that at any moment in life we have nothing to fear.

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